First American Apparel, Now GAP
Planning on walking near the Heart of CampusTM tomorrow? Curious as to what aborted fetuses look like? You’re in luck!
(Fair warning: pretty much every link in this post points to images which many may find highly disturbing)
On Wednesday and Thursday between 7:30 and 4:00 the Genocide Awareness Project (GAP) will be displaying images of aborted fetuses, lynchings, and holocaust victims, amongst other things. Their purpose is to equate the images and consequently point out the genocidal nature of legalized abortion. This assuredly will lead to much hand-wringing, yelling, and other unpleasantries. As one would expect, the Women’s Center will be protesting the event. (Which is unfortunate, since the Women’s Center is implicitly excluding pro-life women from its organization by taking an officially pro-choice stance.) It also means I’ll have to look at pictures of aborted fetuses, people hanging from trees, and holocaust victims every time I go to the EMU the next couple of days. Sigh.
I must say that I do have rather mixed views of GAP’s tactics:
On one hand, even if abortion is genocide, then there’s still no particular reason to directly equate it to the holocaust, lynchings of African-Americans, or other evils. Not to sound like a nitpicking relativist, but something can be unequivically bad without being the same as something else unequivocally bad. If abortion is evil, then can’t it be its own evil? Don’t images of aborted fetuses speak volumes on their own?
And even if an image speaks volumes one way or another, it’s oftentimes inappropriate to push it in unsuspecting people’s faces. There are numerous students who know what an aborted fetus looks like, have an ironclad point of view one way or the other on the issue, and just want to go to their classes without having to see such images again. A very good friend of mine had relatives murdered in the holocaust and purposely avoids viewing images of the atrocities. He isn’t ignorant and he isn’t avoiding reality– he’s seen plenty of images and depictions of that particular genocide. But he does want to go about his day without an emotional load to bear. In a similar vein, a fellow Commentator staffer was bothered by the full image of the last Insurgent issue’s cover that I put up on the blog– for day or two when he visited the blog he pretty much had to view an image that offended him.
On the other hand, the images are undoubtedly powerful. People oftentimes benefit from being confronted by images they find offensive or disturbing– it either strengthens or challenges their existing worldview. I can’t imagine a picture of a late-term abortion could possibly strengthen a pro-choicer’s or weaken a pro-lifer’s respective belief in the righteousness of legalized abortion. Similarly, I can’t imagine a picture of an airstrike victim could possibly strengthen a hawk’s or weaken a pacifist’s view of military intervention. (Of course, in both cases opposing images can be found to invert argument strengths, which is why sensible people generally argue with reason rather than emotion.)
Additionally, images of lynchings in the deep south and of the holocaust were extemely important in convincing people of the respective times that there were unbelievable evils being committed. If a person believes that abortion is an extreme evil, wouldn’t they be negligent to not attempt to confront people with images such as these?
Anyways, enough of me saying what everyone already knows. Tomorrow and Thursday could be interesting, to say the least. If you don’t want to see the images, walk another route or avert your eyes.
Oh, and there was a bit of controversy over whether or not the UO College Republicans were hosting the GAP. I talked with Chair Anthony Warren earlier tonight and he told me that someone from the CRs had indeed reserved the amphitheatre on behalf of the group but that otherwise there was no official connection or involvement on the part of the College Republicans.
I’m turning the comments on this sucker off. I’ve had enough of this shit.
This thread is like an abortion, only more offensive and life-threatening.
I’m sorry that I got carried away. I’m recovering from knee surgery and am bit cranky. I criticized Master for personal attacks and then did a bit of the same.
I stand by the substance of what I’ve stated but I regret and apologize for the tone.
I will respect the administrator and move on.
Please kill this fucking thread. No more posting, please. Just stop typing…stop it!!
Well then, Margo, what are you bothering me about? If you think that Anthony’s lie is reprehensible, then we’re in agreement.
And you’re willing to dismiss my points all because of this perceived lack of rhetorical skill? Facts are facts, dear. Anthony lied to his people, Philomena is defending him. I’m warning her that her actions can put her in the same position that he is in. And you’re willing to dismiss all that because you’re not happy with my style?
I bet you’re not even a woman.
Man some of you guys just wont stop with the attacks.hahaha. Yall must be really bored.
Kids, don’t make me turn this blog around.
I certainly am not an Anthony worshipper. His lie is reprehensible.
You have many good points to make but your anger and/or lack of classic rhetorical skill leaves you unable to communicate without the use of abusive and intimidating language that I believe is designed to silence those who think differently than you do.
What are your aspirations I wonder?
There’s a permanent record here of your apparent misogyny, vulgarity and inability to communicate effectively.
Consider yourself messed with…… MASTER_BAITER !
Margo: Apparently, you’re an Anthony worshipper. Oh wait, if you’re not…it doesn’t apply to you. *shock* How hard can it be to understand that Anthony Warren is one of the biggest fuckfaces on campus who’s ego is larger than the province of Alberta?
As for your main point: I am not a fascist fool. I am making a perfectly sensible observation that Ms. Philomena is going down the same road Anthony is going down, and that the consequences for the actions may be mirrored to such. Fascism has no relevance in the statement as such. If you wanted an explaination, ASK ME. Don’t make accusations. They make you look like a victim of buggery.
The “personal Jesus” comment is quite plain to state, in that Philomena seems to be worshipping Anthony like he was Jesus or something. To which he isn’t. To get with the program simply means to stop blindly worshipping Anthony like he’s the God of the U of O.
Margo, I hope you take a lesson from this. Don’t mess with the Master.
Master…
First let me quote you:
” Well, Philomena, you
Margo, is there a salient point to your ramblings, or are you always going to be an incoherent bitch?
Master-baiter…..
How easily we can become the fascists we claim to despise !
Some of you (and you probably don’t know who you are), need to
(1) use a spellchecker
(2) learn English grammer.
Nothing makes you look dumber (besides your arguments that
abortion is genocide) than your inability to form grammatically
correct English sentences.
Yes, but who runs Bartertown?
Margo, the cranial-rectal extraction room is down the hall. I suggest you go get some treatment.
MASTER>>>>MASTER>>>>>>MASTER !!!!!
DANGEROUS WORDS MY DEAR!
GET WITH “THE PROGRAM” OR YOU’LL HAVE NO FUTURE ?????
MY OH MY….HOW WE CAN BEGIN TO SOUND LIKE THOSE WE RAIL AGAINST !
REPENT !! lol
Well, Philomena, you’re a fucking fool for supporting the ass-crack named Anthony Warren.
And you may end up like him, with no future, if you’re not careful. So stop making him your personal Jesus, and start getting with the program.
Obviously pro-choice, eh? What gave it away, the crack about being anti-fetus or the bit where I stated I’m for completely unrestricted abortion in the first trimester? Observant, you. Just can’t sneak anything by!
For the record, my prefered nomenclature is anti-fetus or pro-death. And, yes, I’ll continue to be glib about it because I might as well be with you people. You believe, with all sincerity, that the removal of a 9-week-old parasite is morally equivalent to stabbing my neighbor for his stereo. Maybe worse, because at least my neighbor isn’t an “innocent child” or one of the “unborn” or some other such nonsense. And, fine, you’re well within your rights to believe that if you want to, and it does flow logically from that belief that you’d try to make abortion illegal (after all, it harms the welfare of another in your mind and is therefore bad)…but there’s little evidence to support you. Okay, so if the blastocyst implants it might not miscarry, hell, it’s got about a 2/3 chance of staying in there…but the little tadpole won’t demonstrate human brain activity until about four months after that, won’t be able to support itself outside of a natal environment for six or seven. Those are the medical facts, if you’re dead when your brain stops, makes sense that you’d be alive when it starts. If you can pull the plug on Granny why not on junior?
But, you know, I’m sure you’re literate and at this point I’m just repeating myself. The sad thing is that you really just don’t seem able to get it. Rather than make an actual, you know, argument as to why, medical facts aside, we should all jump on anti-choice bandwagon you put up pictures of miscarriages and stillbirths to evoke an emotional rather than a rational response. What’s worse, because I’ve seen that trick before and it’s annoying but otherwise unremarkable, is that you have the audacity to claim it’s just as bad as the mechanized, systematic destruction of every dissenter and Jew inside of Germany over a period of four years.
And now you hide behind the “it got people talking” excuse. That one has been used by everyone from holocaust deniers to PETA activists. I seem to recall The Insurgent saying something remarkably similar and a great number of God botherers getting pretty upset about it. I seem to recall, correct me if I’m wrong here, that a number of them actually called for the censure of The Insurgent over the offensive cartoons. Goose, gander, all that. “Getting poeple talking” is no excuse for blatant misrepresentation and hyperbole.
Lest I be misunderstood, I gladly accept that you have a right to place whatever signs you want anywhere on public land. Stand on a street corner yelling about how abortionists are going to hell if you want, Bible Jim* seems to get a gas out of that kind of thing. It’s just that your tactics are stupid, unlikely to be successful (protest all you want, your sample is going to be rife with representativeness and availability bias), and your implications are completely, utterly absurd.
And, frankly, I blame Descartes for this whole mess.
*”Dykes on Bikes” remains my favorite from the “People Are Going To Hell” list, it seems to imply that pedestrial lesbians are A-OK, but that they need not to ride bikes in order to achieve eternal salvation.
I apologize to everyone observing this interaction, but I’m going to try and end it now, because I can understand why you’re frustrated. This argument has become cyclical because my points aren’t being acknowledged. I’ve been arguing why GAP was an effective and worthwile endeaver this whole time if you would look at my responses (recap: abortion is genocide, got people talking, when people think on anything it’s good, look at how genocide is abortion, etc.). If you really did anything pro-life before, it didn’t have an effect on anyone because no one knew about it; and what’s the point in even trying to make a statement if it had no effect on anyone? I’ve been on the issue the whole time, simply look at all my entries, and Sarah’s as well.
And if the issue is not about abortion and about Anthony, than I’ve been on that side of the argument the whole time because I support him, I’ve already stated that.
Obviously those who I’ve been debating with haven’t been paying attention to the straightforward train of arguement if you think I haven’t been responding back. If you’re too egocentric to think that just because I don’t acknowledge you personally in each and every point I make than you’re not in this for the intellectual exchange, but for self-flattery. I have been arguing all points (read all the above). Finally, Andy (are you glad I said your name), you said that this issue shouldn’t predominate my time, there are other more improtant things to worry about, right? Then why are so so angered that I’m not giving you the “every attention” you think you deserve when I try and talk about all points presented and not just yours. I have been attacking your arguments, by the way (read and absorb the arguments).
Calling me emotional is also such a backlash upon yourself because you are making it a specific attack-oriented conversation, and not progressive at all.
It’s apparent you’ve been disreagarding what I’ve been saying and screaming your own opinion without consideration; and that’s immature.
Speaking of immature, by trying to destroy my credibility by making generalizations about me isn’t an intelligent way of debateing; besides, none of my opposers know anything about me, much less my stance on anything besides abortion and GAP now. Anyways, I’m not the issue here, but that’s what it seems like Andy is trying to make it out to be
“Wow, I just read both of your blathering. Look at you both – anyone who doesn
Meridith: It’s already been done. Calls to Tom Tancredo’s office, National Right To Life, Oregon Right To Life.
Anthony Warren does not have a future in politics. Period.
Shit birds are avians whose habitations is fecal matter, similar to how water fowl live in rivers, lakes and oceans.
What is a shit-bird? I don
What is a shit-bird? I don’t believe it’s been covered in any orinthology texts I’ve ever read. Does it poop a lot?
The thread has seved for some interesting discussion. Can we leave it at that and not try to control it like a board meeting?
Certainly it would seem that Anthony has a bit of Hillary Clinton in Him..if you’ll pardon the imagery….or George Dubya to be fair. Your point has been made Andy…and rather well i might add.
Shall we tar and feather Anthony? Perhaps come up with a green letter “L” that he’ll have to wear forever? What shall it be?
If you’re truly concerned with the world you’ll leave for your children…..make intelligent arguments and move on.
Change your immature ways or else you will continue to be immature.
Stop burning your toast or else the toast will be burned!
Sarah and Philomena,
I agree with you that abortion is bad. If I could save every baby and mother from death I would, but I’m not God. So what do I do? I talk to people about other options, I tell them that it’s not a joyful experiance, and that there is a lot of support for mothers here in the US. I don’t think it’s the most important issue facing me right now though, so I don’t focus all my time trying to convince people of it. I think government enslavement of citizens is a greater threat, so that’s what I’m most knowledgable and passionate about.
What I disagree with you on is that YOU refuse to recognize my opinion that:
1) abortion is not genocide
2) the gap display isn’t the right way to get the pro-life message to people
Not answering questions that I ask, ignoring Michael’s post, using “scientific discorveries” to equate genocide with abortion, and acosting the university students with false, graphic pictures for the basis for me calling you both juvinile and immature.
“So far you haven
Saving babies is what this is about, and we must all stand united in the battle against abortion.
Maybe we should install some sort of fertilization detecting device on all the women on the planet. Being that something like 3/4 fertilized eggs never implant in the uterine wall, and that a further a third of those that do implant miscarry. I mean, wouldn’t that make your sky friend the biggest genocidal sociopath in history? Worse than Stalin! Worse than Mao! Pol Pot ain’t got nothing on God!
Look, I realize there’s no point in arguing this with you people, but the first sign that an embryo is even vaguely human (human brain activity) comes somewhere in the middle of the second trimester, usually about the 4th month of pregnancy. A fetus can’t really breathe on its own before about 6 months at the earliest, more like seven most of the time. Physiologically those seem like the easiest places to draw bright lines, if that’s what one is inclined to do. This is why I’m fine with completely unrestricted abortion in the first
semestertrimester, and basically okay with it in the secondsemestertrimester. A lot of things “have the potential” to become human, give the great apes another few million years, so I don’t think that’s a very persuasive line of argumentation. If you’re dead when your brain stops, makes sense to call you alive when your brain starts. If you can’t breathe on your own, it seems that your family (or in the case of a fetus, your host) has the only decision making power when it comes to pulling the plug. Unless you want the government involved in end-of-life decision making, you’d best keep it out of start-of-life decision making because I’m having trouble seeing a clear moral distinction between a second trimester abortion and pulling the plug on Old Granny Senile. Given the behavior of Congress last year, I’d say they don’t see the distinction either and love their own power too much.Further, there are very real practical conerns that the anti-choice (as opposed to the pro-death) crowd absolutely refuse to face. They behave, and this should be no surprise as they’re the biggest drug warriors, as if a prohibition will curb a behavior. Truth of the matter is that there have been abortions for as long as there have been pregnancies, and while there could, perhaps, be fewer of them under a restriction regime I doubt very much that the hypothetical reduction in abortion will be enough to mitigate the very real harms caused by back-alley medical procedures.
I also wonder about your respective positions on birth control* more generally, because if you’re of the “every sperm is sacred” school of thought, I basically haven’t any respect for you. None**. Moreover, I can’t really respect engaging in the sort of insane hyperbole propagated by the GAP. Especially, as was mentioned upthread, because the pictures are not, in fact, of what they purport to be. What you’re saying, then, is that lying can be justified because the end you’re aiming to achieve is just. Frankly, no. That’s ridiculous. If you can’t persuade without dishonesty or hyperbole, you might as well just go home.
*I can see how, from a worldview, misguided as it might be, where one thinks abortion is the moral equivalent of murder one could be against hormonal birth control. Well, if one believed the pro-life hype about “potential to cause miscarriage”, anyway. But the whole condoms thing, or IUDs, or diaphrams…those can’t possibly cause miscarriage because they prevent fertilization in the first place.
**Which is to be construed as my respecting your right to hold whatever foolish opinion you wish, but not respecting the opinion held and therefore having little time and less patience for you.
Actually, Sarah, because I’m one of those who was embroiled in the controversy with the CRs…let me tell you what this is really about.
Anthony Warren (the guy whom you and Sarah worship) and his ego.
Andy, I must say that you have really gone over the edge in the last few replies. I, and other people want to have a Discussion with you, but a discussion must have two sides. So far you haven’t addressed any of my points and have used vulgar and childish names to silence my “juvenile opinions.” This whole debate has drifted so far away from its original purpose. Abortion is what this is about, and political and personal agendas should not interfere. Saving babies is what this is about, and we must all stand united in the battle against abortion. If you really want to discuss this than I am prepared. You said that I haven’t responded to you but so far all I have heard is that I am “childish,” a “religious fanatic” , “stupid”, and many other names. Any yes, abortion is bad, and I don’t care how foolish I look when I support that. Being pro-life is never going to be popular on this campus, and in most of the world, but I have accepted that. You have said that I am simply driven by my emotions, and that they could lead me to the other side. I aknowledge that emotions are a pivotal part of me, but I believe that by my presence at the G.A.P. signs for two days debating, and my blog entries have shown that I have used scientific discoveries, life experiences, and logic to formulate the beliefs that these “emotions” have caused. I would like to know what guides you, since you have scolded me for letting my emotions and my concience guide me. I honestly don’t want to bicker like this, and it saddens me because I have always lived in very liberal areas where I would have to defend my position on abortion every day. It saddens me because you call yourself pro-life and I am still having to debate you, and in one of the most hostile ways I have ever observed. Not even the most zealouspro-abortion people have treated me the way that you have, they have respected me and I have respected them.
Andy, you’re kind of not worth arguing with if all you’re going to do is insult me. I’ve been trying to have a mature conversation and all you do is name call, make generalizations, and not read what I have to say. So far you haven’t contradicted any of my points validly, but have said I’m emotional and my “feelings” are the only driving force on the issue. If you’re not going to listen I won’t waste my time with you, there are other Pro-choicers I need to talk too.
For the record: I’m not pro-abortion so much as I am anti-fetus.
I think this conversation should be aborted. Boil me a coat hanger, stat.
Since your only argument is “abortion is bad and I don’t care how rediculiously I support that,” then just say it. You don’t want to respond to any of my comments, and everyone here realizes how stupid you both look.
The only thing you’re doing is trying to convince yourselves of the validity of your juvinile opinions. I haven’t seen such mental masturbation since talking with the pro-abortion protesters.
By the way, if GAP had put the word murder up there, people would have argued false representation because “how can it be murder if the baby isn’t human?” Fighting over a word, no matter how powerful, is stepping aside from the issue= abortion. People’s conscience’s were pricked, if it really was as simple as the meaning of the word, why would there be such constroversy and protests, honestly?
Michael, you’re right, genocide would fit all those catagories, but think on the fresh issue at hand. Wouldn’t killing all people of between the ages of 68-70 be considered genocide? Yes, now relate that to the unborn, killing the little ones from ages of 1 day to 6 months is the same thing. Are all babies who are concieved killed? No, but are all babies concieved deemed “unwanted?” No. The comparisons to genocide were completely vaild. The murder that is taking place is simply in a different setting. Think of how abortion is the killing of millions within the walls of a “clinic.” Because children are labeled as “unwanted” doesn’t that make them a cultural group? Giving people the legal option of doing that is supporting the systematic killing of those ages (aka age discrimination). Calling a child “unwanted” automatically clumps them in a group together. As a woman, I can say that the child within me is “unwanted” and kill the baby. That’s genocide.
It is so completely awesome to watch you people disintegrate.
Well I didn’t call you religious fanatics, just regular fanatics. What makes you fanatical is your inability/refusal to acknowledge some of your postions are hypocritical because you don’t care – you just say the current buzz word of genocide.
I wouldn’t be suprized if you became fanatical on the other side either. It has nothing to do with logic or reason with you two – only what you feel.
Come to the meeting tomorrow at 7pm, and you can have your say.